Debating Society - Relationships

Summary of the Relationships Debate

Background

On the 5th May 2009, 18 people, 8 men and 10 women gathered to discuss the state of African- Caribbean relationships in the UK. The debate began with the following dialogue.

Male: Expecting monogamy particularly from men is almost futile. The messages we are bombarded with in the 21st century, in the UK are all about self gratification. The thing that a man primarily hunts for is on tap. Different varieties, different flavours, one of his goals is to experience as many as he can, he may occasionally make one of them a mate but that only dulls his need to hunt, it does not eliminate it.

Female: Prior to the emancipation of women, and by that I mean, the pill, equal pay, the ability for women to borrow from the bank in their own right, the lowering of the barriers that prevented women from working in traditionally male dominated roles changed the status of marriage. Prior to that a women needed a man. She did not have a comfortable place in the world without one. Man also needed a woman. To be functional he needed someone to take care of his needs while he hunted and above all he needed sex. Her bargaining tool was her chastity and man had to pay with marriage to a) be seen by society as respectable and b) to own the rights to regular sex. Since emancipation women have also become hunters, they can hunt efficiently for sustenance (salary, credit, consumer goods, status) and they don’t need a man to build a home for them or protect them. They can use the proceeds from their kill to buy that.

Male: Relationship value systems are based on geography. When you look at the French they value the family and will work hard to protect the family unit. Even when the men have extra marital affairs they still protect the family. Look at Holland. It's egalitarian (The word egalitarian is derived from the French word égal, meaning equal, is a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals), even the State works hard to ensure that the family unit is supported. Apparently they even provide child-care for a month after the child is born, so the mother is helped to recuperate. African and Asian countries have different views on marriage, committed relationships and the family. Could it be that black women are expecting their men to act in ways that are alien to their culture?

Female: Given that so many women no longer ‘need’ a man, other than for companionship, procreation and sexual gratification. Men no longer have a protectionist role, so some fill that void with the thrill of the chase, hunting for sex. Commitment takes hard work and dedication, too few of today’s males have any concept of the permanent feeling of well being that can be found with the right women and the heights you can reach when you have found her, there are few examples in daily life particularly for the up and coming generation. Barak Obama is a classic example of someone who has got it right and look at what he has achieved as a result.

Chair

Over time and across the world there are different models of marriage and committed relationships. Looking at long term commitment specifically, for some it means a contract - i.e.

I do this and you do that in return, for others it's a covenant under God, a life long promise, for certain cultures it's an institution an arrangement between families, for many of us living in Western societies it' about the LUUV thing - it's about self, self gratification. Relationships are formed between two individuals without community or family structures to offer support. The UK has the highest divorce rate in Europe, in Europe marriage is often viewed as a business contract, with fewer of us viewing it as a permanent covenant than ever.

In the UK we are self and consumption oriented, as opposed to a family/collective culture Is our personal happiness more important than anything else?. Is ‘what's in it for us’ more important than what we can do for our families and the wider community? Does it matter that so many families from our community are comprised of single mothers. Is the happiness of the nuclear family, a potential erosion of self when it gets down to it, do we accept the spiral of decline for ourselves and our people or do we fight back beginning with strengthening our personal relationships. Let’s begin the debate…




Responses
1. Society is not declining it is just changing, guys are guys and the emphasis is different
2. As long as women thing they are superior, they will fail
3. Fidelity issues are centuries old
4. We are not in a crisis
5. The role of the man and the woman are interchangeable
6. Women are not stronger than men, they compliment each other
7. Don’t image there is a Utopia, did our parents have it better?
8. I’d love to have a powerful wife
9. Men like a strong woman
10. In the past there wasn’t monogamy, what has changed is the context
11. Women are in a better position than ever, why is it considered a crisis?
12. Don’t emasculate your sons
13. Boys need to be pushed towards education, not just tasks
14. Is the problem men, women or society
15. Can men cope with a strong woman
16. The focus has shifted from children to achievement
17. The main effects are on the children
18. Children are out of hand but the single parent thing is not just a black phenomenon
19. Our moral fibre and values are strongly influenced by the media
20. Loss of family traditions, free for all, no taboo’s
21. What is most important in terms of influence, media peers or family?
22. The government has eroded the power of the parents, e.g. smacking and values
23. The role of the man and the woman are blurred, so where does this leave relationships
24. Now it is about the alpha male and the alpha female. There is an old Jamaican saying’ two bulls can’t reign in one pen.
25. The average black male has so much barriers placed in front of him, he can’t get s job, he gives up, he can’t provide for his family, he moves out.
26. Black men are blocked but they need to be strong enough to kick done the blocks
27. Many young children don’t know their father. Men need to shape up
28. Men are not as mentally strong as women
29. Are black women contributing to the damage by accepting inadequate partners?
30. Many black women are rough with their children, they talk at them but not too them and they don’t listen. When those children grow up and they are on the streets they in turn don’t show any empathy towards their community.


Question to men: what is required to attract and keep a man?

Male 1

· Don’t condemn him or his species
· A women rarely asks her man, what it takes to keep him happy
· It’s not all about looking good, we need challenging conversation
· She needs to be interested in my business
· Spiritual connection
· What ever you a looking for in a relationship, give it first
· Forget the list (weight, height build) look at the person.

Male 2

· Keep something back, we like mystery, don’t completely surrender. Keep him coming back. Keep up the chase
· She should have her own ambitions and interests
· A Man needs to pursue his woman continually

Male 3

· Trust, a woman has to have your back
· Intelligence, I need stimulating conversation
· Don’t embarrass me in public, tell me in private
· Piece of mind, I do not want to come home from a hard days work to a war zone
· Listen to her, pause the football and help her choose between the dresses she is considering
· Wear high heels
· Look good on my arms
· Smell good
· Both partners showing their vulnerable sides

Male 4

· Love forgiveness
· What’s on the inside
· Trust
· Is she there when you fall into a pit
· Forgiveness
· Looks change over the years its not the most important thing
· Reliability
· Be the best that you can be. Don’t try to please some man who does not understand himself

Male 5

· Know me better than I know myself
· Hold back, keep something back, mystery. I am competitive so it keeps me chasing
· Keep the relationship fresh
· Smell Good
· Wit and strength of character
· Able to manipulate others

Male 6

· A relationship is an unwritten psychological contract
· The contract is built on emotions and based on expectations
· 30-40’s is a difficult time to begin a relationship because the other party has lived for a lifetime apart from you forming independent ideas and notions
· No, to mystery, I need to know and understand my partner
· Each relationship has its own unique psychological contract.
· Implicitly I am the head of the house and my wife accepts this.
· Bare her soul so I have full confidence in her
· Is there a common ground for defining love?

Male 7

· Psychological contract/values
· Look after yourself
· Mentally and emotionally connected
· Ask me what I like
· Be physically and mentally attractive
· Take time to find out about each other
· Stimulating conversation, I like to be challenged
· A woman having her own qualities, ambitions, and dreams. E.g. business, creative in the work place.

Male 8

· Strive to understand the opposite sex, then strive to understand the individual, if she is within your range – continue
· Attract me visually
· Make me happy by asking questions
· Relationships move through different stages, romance first, inner person later
· Men are visual, getting them is easy, keeping them is harder
· Go out of your way to make him happy

Question to Women: Do you think the man should be the head of the household?

Answers
1. Responsibility is shared in partnership
2. Yes, we discuss but he has the final say
3. It is shared but I control the finances
4. Yes, but circumstances make me the main bread winner
5. Some women do not accept that the man should be the lead

Open Question, what do you think about mixed relationships?

A little background research:

The report ‘Family formation in multi-cultural Britain: three patterns of diversity’ was introduced. You are advised not to take the report as gospel but to be mindful of the reported trends. The report compares family structures from Asian, Caribbean and White communities living in the UK. The researched found that 48% of Caribbean mothers are single at age 25, compared to 7% of their white counterparts. 78% of black and white women without qualifications are single. 3% of white mothers with ‘A’ level qualifications are single, the figure is 27% for their Caribbean counterparts.

Only 24% of Caribbean mothers have partners from the same heritage. For 48% the father is not present.

50% of Caribbean men are living with or married to a partner.
50% of Caribbean men who are living with or married to a partner, are with partners that are not of Caribbean heritage. This means that 25% of Caribbean males are available for partnership and marriage to Caribbean women and 75% are not.

The remaining 50% of Caribbean men who are not married or living with a partner either do not have the economic means to support a relationship or they are having fun choosing between the potential 75% of Caribbean women who are not in long term relationships.

The paper was written by Richard Berthoud from the University of Essex, the conclusions were contributed by the author. Read the report for yourself……….
http://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/publications/working-papers/iser/2000-34.pdf

Admittedly the group did not have a chance to digest the implications of the report before the debate began. Here are the responses to the question.


Summarised Male responses to mixed relationships

We appreciate beauty in all women. Beauty is beauty. None of the men present had a problem with mixed relationships although some of them would not consider having one.

Female Responses

* 80% of the women had a problem with mixed relationships, they saw it as rejection. When asked if they would consider having a mixed relationship, 90% of the women said no. Reasons given included:-
* They do not find men from other cultures attractive
* It would not be accepted by our family & friends
* They don’t see men from other cultures as potential partners, they are invisible as far as considering relationships are concerned.
* Most of the women had a problem with males having mixed relationships but none of the women had a problem with females having mixed relationships.

Back ground Statistics

· 60% of the women present were single mothers.
· 30% were married and 10% unknown. 66% of the married women where from African and not Caribbean heritage
· 50% of the males present where married or in long term relationships
· 25% of the married males were with a partner from a different heritage.

Question – Do you believe in God?

Response: The majority of the women but their hands up, the majority of the men did not.

Next Steps

Household debates on this subject, and others will continue but you can continue the debate on line. The debate is moderated so keep it clean and inoffensive.
When you respond to something previously written, please make references to the section you are responding to and if relevant the point number or debater reference e.g. ‘male 1’. You are welcome to introduce new but related arguments.If you would like help with constructing your response send your submission to rootstofruits@gmail.com and support will be provided via email.